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Shin Megami Tensei Fan Edit

So yeah I'm a huge SMT fan and I found a youtube account with the name Persona 5 http://www.youtube.com/user/ATLUSxP5?feature=watch

That's fanmade... the description of each video says it... use google translate. -- Crok425 18:38, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

New Category?Edit

What do you guys think about a new category for the games still in development like Persona 5 and Shin Megami Tensei IV? -MinatoHikari 04:21, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

The "collaboration " Edit

The "collaboration that will surprise everyone" that Katsura Hashino teased is SMT x Fire Emblem. It has nothing to do with Persona 5. Removed that bit of the article. AlternNocturn (talk) 14:41, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

[SUPER DUPER SPOILERS FOR BOTH P4:A and P4:G] Persona 5 plot dicussion. Edit

AGAIN, PLEASE DONT READ UNLESS YOU WANT TO HEAR BUTT LOADS OF SPOILERS.


What do you think will happen in Persona 5? I highly doubt that it won't envolve the main cast of Persona 4 and probably Persona 3. In the ending of Persona 4 Arena, the Investigation Team wants to head to Port Island for another mystery. I wonder if this takes place after or before Persona 4: Golden's epiloge. What do you think they will do next for the series, if they made a new playable character it would seem.....off. So they would need to get rid of the name customization thing at least. Another theory I saw while playing Persona 4: Arena was that the Dark Hour stopped right before the Midnight Channel. They have to be connected in some way and I can't wait to see the mastermind behind all of this. Your thoughts? GameBoy14 (talk) 09:08, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Not here. This is what the forums are for. Great Mara (talk) 10:15, March 15, 2013 (UTC)
It seems that the side games are what have the cross overs so i suspect this will soely be a P5 only game then another side game will come out to have a mixed cast. I hope it's not just another 2D fighter though. DOn't get me wrong I love Arena but I heavily prefer RPG's Persona fool (talk) 20:21, February 5, 2015 (UTC) Persona fool 03:20, Feb 5 2015

SEGA SAMMY?Edit

On the page it says "A Persona 5 website domain was registered on June 25th, 2013 by Index Corporation, owner of Atlus"

Shouldn't we change it to ex-owner of Atlus seeing as how it was delisted & Sega Sammy bought Atlus? 

Magatsuinaba (talk) 21:42, September 19, 2013 (UTC)

If the domain no longer exists, then it can say that, possibly including that P5's future is unknown with Sega's purchase of Atlus, but the fact remains that it was registered by Index, who owned Atlus at that time (former owner, not ex-owner). Tathra (talk) 23:58, September 19, 2013 (UTC)

Character ArcanaEdit

This has been on my mind for sometime. What would the characters' Arcana be? We already know the Protagonist's Arcana is the Fool, but what of the others'? I would like to hear what you would have to say.Pof203 (talk) 20:07, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

its not even confirmed that the protagonist's arcana will be the fool. this isn't the place for speculation though, this should be in the forums or as a blog post (or better yet, someplace like gamefaqs). Tathra (talk) 21:11, May 25, 2015 (UTC)
I can use the blog posts? I suppose.Pof203 (talk) 01:44, May 26, 2015 (UTC)
Well, they brought back having both melee and ranged weapons like in the first Persona. So, who knows? Umbrefox (talk) 04:37, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Japanese Voice ActorsEdit

List taken from the last trailer:

  • Jun Fukuyama 福山 潤
  • Rina Satoh 佐藤 利奈
  • Aki Toyozaki 豊崎 愛生
  • Nana Mizuki 水樹 奈々
  • Hirohiko Kakegawa 掛川 裕彦
  • Tomokazu Sugita 杉田 智和
  • George Nakata 中田 譲治
  • Yuji Mitsuya 三ツ矢 雄二
  • Ikue Ohtani 大谷 育江
  • Kazunari Tanaka 田中 一成
  • Minako Arakawa 荒川 美奈子
  • Mamoru Miyano 宮野 真守
  • Yuhko Kaida 甲斐田 裕子
  • Masane Tsukayama 津嘉山 正種
  • Soichiro Hoshi 保志 総一朗
  • Aoi Yuki 悠木 碧
  • Shuichi Ikeda 池田 秀一
  • Haruka Tomatsu 戸松 遥
  • Yukitoshi Hori 堀之 紀

It's all I can say... Eidolon2010 (talk) 13:46, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Info Box Formatting Edit

Could someone that knows how to format wikia stuff fix the text color in the Info Boxes in the P5 category?

The Text color is literally the same color as the background.

108.51.38.185 04:13, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

I'm a little confused.Edit

They said Persona 5 will come this summer, but the countdown clock is set to reach zero sometime in May. Could someone explain to me what this means, please?Pof203 (talk) 07:26, April 30, 2016 (UTC)

The clock is just for a promo event happening in Japan. --DirtyBlue929 (talk) 18:58, April 30, 2016 (UTC)

Enemy classifications Edit

Pardon me unless if I am wrong but, (which I might be 9/10) according to the Famitsu scans, the enemies are not being called "Fiends"(Demons) but actually are called shadows and only adopt the visage of personas/fiends(which makes sense based on the connection of personas and shadows being pratically the same). In a non rude way, may I please ask if the term will be changed to shadows instead? 205.197.242.142 19:10, June 15, 2016 (UTC)Annonymous

When is the release date they said its feb 15 2017? For us and Philippines

Steelbook CoverEdit

Can anyone source the "flash photography" bit about the steelbook? Isn't it just reflective, like a lenticular print?  I don't see anything other than greyscale gradiant between the two. 2quidKing (talk) 04:17, April 21, 2017 (UTC)

This info comes from a single Reddit post with no resonable validity beyond one person's imagination.  I'm going to remove the section. 2quidKing (talk) 22:14, May 21, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be seeing in the cover either, the section just sounds like rambling to me. You'd get the same effect taking a picture of pretty much any case like that. Desacabose (Talk) 22:40, June 8, 2017 (UTC)
It's only in the characters, tho. I don't think it's a coincidence. Think we can at least rephrase it to be a possibility? —AlexShepherd 23:49, June 8, 2017 (UTC)
Can you rephrase it to make it more clear what the effect is supposed to be? Desacabose (Talk) 09:47, June 9, 2017 (UTC)

"problematic LGBT representation" trivia Edit

I noticed this trivia get removed by several different users, but alexshepherd has been continously reverting the edits. I don't particularly care one way or the other but I feel like it probably needs to be settled before this continues. I feel like it would be a good idea to discuss whether or not the trivia should be kept on the talk page, instead of people just constantly removing it before he reverts it.  Desacabose (Talk) 03:39, April 29, 2017 (UTC

Here are my counter-points:

"Criticism is not a valid piece of trivia"

  • The criticism is not the main point of the trivia, the fact that there is problematic representation is. Problematic representation is an interesting and notable topic for many, which is why it's Trivia-worthy.

"This critique is done on a gaming forum and is not on the right platform."

  • See my above point. The criticism is not the main point. The NeoGAF link is merely meant to show the scene in question. It also helps back up the fact that criticism exists, but again, the criticism isn't the main point.

"This is not-notable"

  • This is merely an opinion, and I don't see why the opinion of a few should qualify its removal. I'm sure there's a lot of LGBT gamers and people who care about this issue who do think it's notable.

"This appears to be an opinion"

  • No, it's not. If it was an opinion, then it would be saying "This is problematic". There's a difference between an opinion and showcasing an opinion. It's merely showing that such problematic representations and opinions do exist. Besides, the feedback and reception of the representation isn't the main point, like I said before. The representation itself is the main point.

"Showcasing opinions isn't something that belongs on Trivia"

  • See my above point - the representation itself is the main point, not its feedback. It doesn't negate the main point that the Trivia is about problematic representation, not the opinions involved. Even if its reception is the point argued, then the point about the game's reviews should be removed since it's about how the game was received. So the whole thing comes off as a double standard against LGBT.

My point remains. I think it is a very notable piece of Trivia, as there will be people playing the game, and will think of gay people as flamboyant child molestors. These things need to be noted, called out and addressed, and I think on the Trivia is fine. The way people and actual human beings are treated is far more valuable and important than points such as "this game brings back skills from Persona 2!". —AlexShepherd 03:49, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

A counterpoint to all of it:

  • Who are you to decide that this problematic representation is problematic? Who are these people on NeoGAF to decide it? Oh sure they have opinions, but a random bunch of people on a forum aren't notable enough to make their opinions matter- they're just whiners like you. They're not professional reviewers or scholars of gaming capable of actually getting people outside their gated community to take them seriously. 
  • Similar scenes appeared in Persona 3 and Persona 4 Golden. Why didn't anyone complain about them then, including yourself? Were they not problematic enough for you to jump on and turn into a soapbox? 
  • Why do you assume any of the above people speak for even a single LGBT gamer? If I was in their place, I'd be more offended by you for trying to dictate what I should feel while feigning offense on my behalf over a stupid throwaway gag.
  • Equating the portrayal of two minor NPCs who are given no names and are never seen again with "people and actual human beings" is nothing short of delusional, as is the idea that anyone playing this will jump to the nonsensical conclusion that all gays are child molesters. Perhaps you should have followed the game's advice about not confusing fantasy with reality. 
  • How is this "trivia" anything but an utterly inappropriate political agenda which ultimately has nothing to do with Persona 5 itself? I'm certain nobody who reads this wiki could care less about "problematic representation" unless they're either too sensitive or have too much time on their hands. 

The representation doesn't qualify as trivia, the complaining about it certainly doesn't qualify as trivia, and your insistence that it's a huge deal that needs to be announced to the world only makes you look insane. 69.138.27.21 05:48, April 29, 2017 (UTC)


More counterpoints (your quotes in italics):

  • No one is trying to decide that it's "problematic" for everyone, but this obviously offended a lot of people. Besides, are you really trying to suggest that the only gay characters in a video game are portrayed as implied child molestors, sexual harassers, and a "punchline" isn't SOMEHOW problematic? If you're annoyed by the "problematic" part as if it's a fact, then change the wording of that. Don't remove all of it. Sheesh.
  • NeoGAFers aren't just "extremist whiners on a forum", they're also human beings with values. If you showed this scene to all of humanity, a good chunk would be offended.
  • If people want to add the problematic stuff from P3/P4 as Trivia points, go ahead. However, don't you DARE try to claim I, myself, have done nothing about P4 stuff, since I've been trying to neutralize stuff on Kanji's and Naoto's articles for a long time. But yes, I think the stuff in P5 is a step above the stuff in P3/P4, and is outrageously offensive at this point to the degree that it deserves a mention. I'm not trying to turn this into a "soapbox".
  • "Why do you assume any of the above people speak for even a single LGBT gamer?" Because a lot of people on that NeoGAF thread are, in fact, LGBT, and many do, indeed, find it problematic. You don't have to be LGBT yourself to understand how people can find it problematic.
  • No one is trying to claim "you should feel this way" or "dictate how you feel".
  • "Equating the portrayal of two minor NPCs who are given no names and are never seen again with "people and actual human beings" is nothing short of delusional" Yes, we obviously know they're video game characters, but it doesn't change the fact that video game characters can shape the opinions of how real people see real people. This is not an excuse to treat LGBT representation in gaming as something that is unimportant.
  • "as is the idea that anyone playing this will jump to the nonsensical conclusion that all gays are child molesters." Of course, no one will jump that conclusion, but when the only gay people in a game are represented in this way, this is not a good thing. This is problematic.
  • "How is this "trivia" anything but an utterly inappropriate political agenda which ultimately has nothing to do with Persona 5 itself?" This IS Persona 5 related because this IS how Persona 5 treats LGBT people. This has everything to do with Persona 5. I don't see how simply making note of the fact that Persona 5 doesn't portray LGBT very well and is problematic is "inappropriate" or a "political agenda".
  • "I'm certain nobody who reads this wiki could care less about "problematic representation" unless they're either too sensitive or have too much time on their hands." And that is a shame because people need to start taking representation, especially problematic representation, more seriously. Making note of this is a good start.
  • "The representation doesn't qualify as trivia" This is merely your opinion. Many people find representation noteworthy.
  • "the complaining about it certainly doesn't qualify as trivia" Again, the reception isn't the main point here, but it adds source and back ups the idea that this representation is problematic.
  • "your insistence that it's a huge deal that needs to be announced to the world only makes you look insane." It's a teeny tiny small little paragraph on a Trivia section. I'm not "announcing it to the world". Your insistence on constantly removing this Trivia and making a big deal about it (as you decided to write up all those counterpoints) only makes you look like a bigot. And calling me "insane" is offensive to the mentally ill.
  • "Anyone can find the scenes if they want to." I had a hard time finding it. If I Google "Persona 5 gay controversy" on Google or YouTube, I can't find that scene, so there's nothing wrong with linking to it on NeoGAF. —AlexShepherd 06:22, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

Again it is my turn.

  • Who is "a lot of people"? There's something you should know: most of them don't care either way, gay, straight, or otherwise. It's just another stupid Japanese joke to them (and one which has precedent both in the series and in the Japanese culture itself), no more and no less. Claiming that "a good chunk of humanity" would be offended by it is an extraordinary claim that requires equally extraordinary evidence. As you have no way of providing such evidence, it is by definition unprovable and a matter of opinion- which is exactly the same thing you say I'm doing wrong, I might add.
  • How can you be sure a single person on the NeoGAF thread is truly LGBT? People lie online all the time, how do you know they aren't? Besides, it's truly arrogant to believe their values are representative of all people's- as repugnant as it sounds, some people will think Atlus was actually being too nice. In fact, if you bothered to look around you'd learn that even the concept of something being "problematic" is itself problematic for reasons that would be a waste of time to discuss, especially for someone who seems too unwilling to listen to how he might sound to someone outside of his echo chamber. 
  • That "tiny" paragraph was still three times the size of the other paragraphs in the trivia section. 
  • LGBT representation in gaming is irrelevant to the subject matter of this wiki. If you want to make a page on the subject on Wikipedia and use this as an example there, fine. But on here it is not worth our time in the slightest. The average reader of this wiki just wants to read about Megami Tensei games, they don't care about the LGBT community's issues with representation because it's none of their business. Putting that paragraph down makes you look like a moral guardian who conveniently forgets that one of the game's own messages is not to jump to conclusions about other people. 
  • I called it insane because how else do you describe an irrational claim along the lines of "a single joke is equal to smearing all gays on the planet"? It isn't the type of claim a rational person makes unless identity politics has seriously skewed their perspectives. 
  • If you couldn't find anyting for "Persona 5 gay controversy", there's a simple explanation for it: That's because there is no controversy. If it was even half as bad as you made it out to be, the media would have been all over it from the moment it launched outside Japan, as opposed to just one forum that's been infamous for its biases in the past. (Let's also note that there's no evidence that other characters aren't gay and that you didn't consider that possibility because they didn't openly advertise it- just like in the real world.)

In short, I don't oppose its presence on the page because I'm some kind of bigot, I oppose it because it has nothing to do with the page's subject matter, adds nothing of relevance even in a trivia section, invites ugly political slapfights like this one, and ultimately brings nothing but a lot of trouble to everyone involved. All of your arguments thus far have merely reinforced that viewpoint in convincing me that you couldn't care less about the wiki's goals and subject matter as long as your crusade gets attention. If you really want to bring attention to the issue, do it somewhere more suitable. 69.138.27.21 07:08, April 29, 2017 (UTC)


Quickly popping in to offer some small two cents: Alex, you obviously have a major bias on this issue. This isn't the first time you've fought for this kind of thing; I've seen you flat-out accuse the mods and admins of being homophobes/transphobes because they reverted your edits to Kanji Tatsumi and Naoto Shirogane where you went on tirades about how the former is 100% a homosexual and the latter is 100% an f-to-m transexual - and IIRC this happened multiple times, all of which ended in a temp ban. Now I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong on this one - I agree that the two characters in question are kind of offensive - but I really think you should step back for a minute and think before you go overboard again. 

(And now to GTFO for the rest of this conversation before things get heated.) DirtyBlue929 (talk) 07:26, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

First of all, it was just Great Mara, who does come off as a homophobe/transphobe, not the entire "mod and admin" team. If I remember correctly, they refuse to use preferred gender pronouns, and said some awful things about the LGBT community in the past. And no, I NEVER claimed Kanji is 100% gay, nor did I ever claim that about Naoto. I argue that Kanji is Naoto-sexual, not gay, and I helped provide evidence that Kanji is interested in women because I care about the truth. —AlexShepherd 07:47, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
Bullshit, you went into a discussion with me for the whole Naoto transsexual parade. Crok425 (talk) 01:05, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

My points:

  • So what, I have to make a poll just to prove this? Why do we have to specify who? If you did a basic poll, maybe 20-25% would find this offensive and/or problematic. This offended people, so stop trying to act like they don't matter. Simply saying "some people are offended and find this problematic" is NOT a "matter of opinion" - it's a fact. And saying "some" is fine and gets the point across. We don't need an unnecessary poll to prove this.
  • Are you serious? You're actually suggesting that everyone on NeoGAF who claims they are LGBT and are offended are just lying? Anyway, see my above point. We do not need to go in detail and be oddly specific about who is offended and who isn't. Simply saying "some" is fine.
  • "That "tiny" paragraph was still three times the size of the other paragraphs in the trivia section." Good grief! You're making a mountain out of a molehill. It's still a small paragraph and we can shorten it if you like.
  • Trivia exists for things that the typical reader may find interesting, that usually doesn't fit anywhere else on the article. This qualifies as that. Some people find LGBT representation an interesting topic like myself. If it doesn't interest you, just shrug and move on with life. You're going out of your way to argue against something you claim you don't care about. Just because the average reader may not care about this or find it interesting, it doesn't mean we should remove it. And actually noting problematic representation can get people thinking AND interested about this. We have to start somewhere.
  • "I called it insane because how else do you describe an irrational claim along the lines of "a single joke is equal to smearing all gays on the planet"?" This "joke" is harming LGBT people and how LGBT are treated not only in media, but in real life.
  • "If you couldn't find anyting for "Persona 5 gay controversy", there's a simple explanation for it: That's because there is no controversy." There IS controversy, it's just small. It doesn't mean this criticism/controversy doesn't matter. I've heard the problematic representation being discussed in P5 circles, on Tumblr, on Reddit, etc. The more we circulate stuff like this, the more attention gets drawn to it. Maybe if we leave this Trivia point, a gaming news journal will report on it and it will open a big conversation. All you're doing is preventing this from happening.
  • "If it was even half as bad as you made it out to be, the media would have been all over it from the moment it launched outside Japan, as opposed to just one forum that's been infamous for its biases in the past." It's still bad, and that's what counts.
  • "(Let's also note that there's no evidence that other characters aren't gay and that you didn't consider that possibility because they didn't openly advertise it- just like in the real world.)" You're acting like this somehow actually matters. Yes, I realize other characters may be gay. Maybe Shiho is a lesbian for Ann, who knows. It doesn't change that fact that this representation is still bad.
  • "it has nothing to do with the page's subject matter, adds nothing of relevance even in a trivia section". It still qualifies as Persona 5 Trivia.
  • "invites ugly political slapfights like this one." You're the one getting all hot and bothered by it.
  • "and ultimately brings nothing but a lot of trouble to everyone involved." I'm not troubled in the slightest. If you're "troubled", blame yourself.
  • "All of your arguments thus far have merely reinforced that viewpoint in convincing me that you couldn't care less about the wiki's goals and subject matter as long as your crusade gets attention." I do care about the wiki (or else I wouln't have over 9000 edits. How many do you have? Oh right, you're an IP with 10 who won't even bother to make a proper Wikia account.) And I'm not going on a "crusade" at all. Apparently me being "firm" means "me going on a crusade"? Riiiight. —AlexShepherd 07:44, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

Seeing as you will split hairs no matter what I say and act as if your quantity of edits gives you the moral high ground, I'll be blunt. This will is not and never will be a place for social commentary of any type, and if people like you were offended then they really, really need to either grow some thicker skin or experience some real discrimination that would make them thankful that a stupid joke is all they have to worry about. --69.138.27.21 14:34, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

So you're giving up the debate, and trying to threaten a "This Trivia will not remain" as if you're the ultimate authority of this wiki? Wow, such debating skills. The rest is just ad hominem opinion "You need to grow thicker skin". Hey, news flash: media tends to be political and full of social commentary. Even video games, which is why there's nothing wrong with a teeny tiny mention of social commentary themes on a wiki. You should watch this video. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out the fact that some people were (quite reasonably and understandly) offended by the LGBT portrayals in Persona 5. I think *you're* the one who needs to grow a thicker skin if you can't handle a little bit of social commentary in a teeny tiny little Trivia point. —AlexShepherd 14:51, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

I've been doing my hardest to try and be reasonable here, but when you keep being effectively told that you're "on the wrong side of history" by someone hell-bent on pushing an agenda enough times, you realize reason just won't work. For someone who claims to dislike ad hominems, all your points boil down to "my point of view is right and you're a homophobe if you disagree". Its all well and good if they want do something about unfair representation, but this wiki is not the place for it. I know that I for one browse here to get away from those issues, not immerse myself in them further. Consider the point of view of the people who have been bullied into submission by your tirades thus far and remember that being loud and being a majority are two entirely different things.

And I'll be blunt: on other wikis both on and off Fandom, I've seen such "trivia" grow like a tumor until half the page is taken up by a screed on social justice, which itself alienates people who want nothing to do with it lest they be vilified for even trying to bring things closer to neutrality. It may seem like one harmless paragraph, but the slippery slope process can and has taken route from just one paragraph before. --69.138.27.21 15:08, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

I'm trying to push the notion (which you call an "agenda") that *representation matters* and is fine to discuss on wikis because some people find it noteworthy and interesting. Stop putting words in my mouth - I never said "my point of view is right" or "if you disagree with me, you're a homophobe". What you can't seem to accept is that this qualifies as a valid Trivia point, and YOUR point just boils down to "I just don't like it and want it off". And I promise you that this Trivia won't grow "like a tumor", and it will remain as a small blurb.
Also, Persona is about people facing social issues and is full of commentary, both religious, political, and even LGBT-related. If you want to just slay monsters in a dungeon all day, go ahead, but stop trying to act like all this social commentary stuff isn't relevant and matters for the rest of us who *do* care about this. —AlexShepherd 15:22, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
Who is "the rest of us"? Since nobody has bothered to restore it since my own revert or spoken up in its defense, it must be the case that they may not care about it as much as you believe. Surely all those other people who share your views aren't all absent from this discussion at the same time? 
And allow me to quote someone from one of the other wikis I mentioned who had brought up similar concerns regarding social issues being made note of on a wiki that had nothing to do with social issues, as he expresses said concerns far better than I do (this is paraphrased, as the original had multiple expletives interspersed throughout which would make a direct transcription unfeasible):
  • "I've noticed a trend both here and elsewhere of users new and old getting very antsy about making sure they're all cool and progressive and suchlike, bulldozing anything that they think might make them look otherwise in the eyes of anyone who happens to be looking. Whether or not they are actually interested in said thing beyond its social utility is immaterial. It is usually done with the pretense that those things are "problematic", "toxic," or fundamentally, On The Wrong Side Of History.This brings me to another point: the people who pull this stuff don't do compromise, not really. Everything must fit their tunnel-vision worldview, and if you disagree then you are On The Wrong Side Of History and either you will be destroyed with cheap shots or you will watch what you were trying to protect be slowly twisted by degrees into what they wanted in the first place...You are On The Wrong Side Of History, we're going to bully you until you attempt suicide."
  • "I've seen it on forums like RPG.net, where they ingratiate themselves with the mods...and start pulling bans out of the air to remove their enemies. I've seen it on wikis; people have collected reams of primary evidence of Wikipedia users flagrantly pushing their views (which Wikipedia is supposed to ban you for, by the way) into articles on stuff like GamerGate, with punishments occurring months after the damage was done if at all. (The GG incident is especially hilarious since you had guys who were openly collaborating with people party to the controversy to bias the articles in their collective favor, and it still took months for ArbCom to finally take action.) Unless you make a real stance and tell anyone that tries to change it to let it go, it doesn't stop. They can't be bargained with: in the end they will accept nothing less than total dominion. If you try to ban politics they'll just switch to frog-boiling, claiming all the while that their efforts are totally non-political. They can't be reasoned with: they are 200% convinced that they are right and you are wrong; evidence and rhetoric rolls off of them. They do not know fear: no true fanatic does. They do not know pity or remorse: after all, there are no bad tactics, only bad targets. And once they find you they will not stop until your community is dead."

You might think it'll stay as a small blurb, but can you really be certain of that? Especially when you feel the need to be so defensive over a "small blurb" being removed? All media may be political in the eyes of the video you linked, but should it be political? I think not. Sometimes escapism should remain precisely that: escapism. 69.138.27.21 16:01, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

Everything you've said is literally just anecdotal, and it feels like you're going off-topic and just trying to claim that just become something bad happened once, something will always become bad so we shouldn't take risks. And yes, I can guarantee it will remain a small blurb and promise that.
Since we've exhausted our views, may we come to a compromise? What if we reduce it to merely this Trivia point: "The only explicitly gay people in Persona 5 are stereotypically flamboyant, are depicted as ephebophiles, and speak with a lisp." and end it at that? It has absolutely no talk of any "reception" or "opinions" and does not come off as biased in the slightest. —AlexShepherd 16:22, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough. Though I am still somewhat uneasy about it, it is not in itself likely to cause any of the issues that I mentioned above as far as I can see. That said, I will remind you that as problematic as the aforementioned depiction is in our eyes (and make no mistake, I am displeased with it too- I simply feel that there are more pressing concerns for the LGBT community than a depiction in a single video game), such a depiction is not only normal but common in its country of origin- I've learned that it is unwise to assume that Western values such as yours or mine are universal and that it is best to judge what a culture does by its own standards, not our own. I will leave it at that and put this whole thing behind me if you will as well. 69.138.27.21 16:48, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

I'll be honest here. I actually do think that LGBT mentions on a wiki is relevant but ONLY if the subject matter has gained a serious ammount of controversy due to it like Catherine did with Erica and thus creating the "criticism" section on the page. I will say, Alex... dude... while it's true that these gay characters have been stereotyped and used as comic relief I don't think we should already label it as offensive since you took the word out of a topic in NeoGAF. I mean, Atlus' represantation of fat characters is for comedy purposes like the Moon SL in P3 and Hanako in P4 with the only character not made a fat stereotype being Eikichi... however, as a fat person myself, I do not find this kind of stuff offensive or gives me the urge to boycott or start a campaign of fat represantation on gaming.

But seriously, the only way the piece of trivia about the gay men would be relevant if it has gained a good ammount of controversy... otherwise it isn't that relevant. Crok425 (talk) 01:22, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

I disagree. Your argument is "it's only notable if it's popular". By your logic, we should delete every article on movies that aren't that popular on Wikipedia. The fact is, it's still in the game and people may still find it interesting and that's all that matters. Also, we are not labelling it as "offensive", but many people DO find it offensive, hence why I think it should be included. Also, I'm not trying to "boycott" or "make a campaign", I just feel such problematic representation is notable and its inclusion helps get people thinking about such issues. By removing the Trivia, you are forcing your beliefs on everyone else. —AlexShepherd 07:39, May 1, 2017 (UTC)
  • "By your logic, we should delete every article on movies that aren't that popular on Wikipedia."

How is that even comparable...? And no, my arguement is "If it hasn't gained the notoriety enough to be a controversy then it isn't a controversy yet" thus as a trivia it isn't relevant.

  • "Also, we are not labelling it as "offensive", but many people DO find it offensive, hence why I think it should be included."

You did label it as offensive before, though... and by many you mean that NeoGAF topic... and considering that a topic has a handful of the people that played the game then it isn't really "many" by comparison. Sure, I won't deny that some people may find it offensive but to reach the point of controversy it needs a good amount of notoriety like online articles and such (for example).

  • "Also, I'm not trying to "boycott" or "make a campaign""

I... I was exagerating about that... I was merely pointing out that just because a representation isn't accurate or be for a comic relief then it shouldn't be taken seriously.

  • "I just feel such problematic representation is notable and its inclusion helps get people thinking about such issues."

A representation that was never meant to be taken seriously... and believe me that if those two gay men were main characters such as Kanji, Jun or anyone else they would've been represented in the perfect manner... apparently the man in drag was represented well (although I dunno since I haven't looked into that one yet).

  • "By removing the Trivia, you are forcing your beliefs on everyone else."

And this is the part I wanted to reach. Then how is it any different from you adding said trivia to force your beliefs on everyone else that "this represantation is harmful and you should listen to me"?... How is it that I am the one forcing ideas on everyone else and you aren't? Because you are the one that's on the right? That is the definition of double standard that sometimes you make on mods like Great Mara, it's ridiculous. Bro, seriously... I'm not forcing anything on others... I'm trying to reach a reasonable conclusion without accusations of anything. So... is it a bad represantation? Yes. Is it offensive? Kind of. Is it meant to be taken seriously by any manner? No. Does it teach people that gay men are pedophiles? If it does then those people can't seperate fantasy from reality. Crok425 (talk) 09:38, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

It's comparable because you're saying unpopular content should be removed from a wiki. Anyway, I never claimed it's "offensive" for everyone, although it has potential to offend a lot of people. I, myself, find it offensive so if I said it was earlier, I was speaking of my own opinion. Just because the scene is played as a "joke", it doesn't mean it's not notable or it that it shouldn't be taken seriously because it's still an offensive joke. How would you feel if Persona 5 made a black joke about black people being slaves and being told we shouldn't take it seriously because it's a "joke"? Even if this gay representation isn't meant to be taken seriously by the developers, a lot of people still find it offensive and unfunny. It's still problematic representation - just because problematic representation is portrayed as a joke, it doesn't mean it stops being problematic representation, or that we can ignore the entire issue and laugh it off.
I'm not forcing my beliefs on others because that Trivia was *pure fact* and had no opinionated content, yet you remove it. I wasn't "forcing a idea" on anyone, just making note of the fact that this is how the only gay people in Persona 5 are portrayed. This problematic representation, which has gained some controversy, deserves to be at least noted so that people are aware of this. By removing it, you're essentially saying this issue isn't notable for anyone, which is why you're forcing your beliefs. If you can understand the fact that some people feel this "joke" is notable and should be taken seriously, then you should leave it be. —AlexShepherd 19:25, May 1, 2017 (UTC)
Unpopular content isn't the same as unpopular controversy, the great notoriety is what creates a controversy, not a handful of people on a forum. That black people example is more extreme to what it's portrayed in P5, for one it would obviously never happen because of ethical reasons and morals, and second the represantation of gay men (that are comic relief) are that they are flamboyant and are attracted to 16-17 year old teenagers which isn't as comparable to slavery (you come up with stupid examples, I'm sorry). The only way if the bad represantation is made problematic... as seriously problematic... would be if some part of the script actually said that all gay men are like that making the developer homophobes. It's not problematic, it's just bad but in the way of comic relief, just in the same manner Hanako badly represents fat people, or Bebe representing french men. It was a comic relief thing taken to the extreme and was a bad represantation... but not problematic.
And the only way to be aware of this is by putting it in a wiki instead of a post on tumblr, a forum, twitter, etc.? No, by removing it I'm saying it isn't a controversy yet, I'm not forcing my ideals on anyone on anything, if it gets enough notoriety then I don't mind it being put there on the page (so much for forcing my beliefs), it's, for now, a complaint some fans have. I do think it's a notable subject but not in the way you describe it and no... I'm not going to leave it be because I don't really agree with it yet. For example, I don't agree with the controversy Erica had on the trans represantation in Catherine but considering it had a good amount on controversy and notoriety I left that part be.

Stop accusing me of stuff I'm not making, please. Crok425 (talk) 20:35, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

Again, you're bringing it back to the controversy (reception), which is NOT the main point of the Trivia, and I don't think it needs to be super controversial to make it notable. I think it is notable, even without much controversy. The main point is the representation involved. The rest is just *you* deciding this representation isn't problematic - it's just *you* forcing your beliefs on everyone else and dismissing the opinions of those who do care about this. A ton of people do find this representation problematic. And yes, wikis are a great way to bring attention to concerns like this - they are not the "only" way, but they help. So yes, this ultimately boils down to you forcing your beliefs and opinions on everyone - you can deny it all you want and try to come up with this silly excuses, it's still what you're doing. This is exemplified by the fact that you just said "I won't let it remain because I don't agree with it". There are a lot of times when I find Trivia that I myself don't agree with or find a stretch, yet let it remain for those who do care. —AlexShepherd 20:10, May 2, 2017 (UTC)
Fine, I do admit that sayin "I don't agree with it" wasn't right. Okay then, what you put on the trivia section was "The only LGBT represantation in P5 are two gay men that are stereotipically flamboyant, appear as ephebophiles and have a lisp in the Japanese track"..... I do see the problem there... but I don't see the relevancy of it to just be in the trivia section just for the sake of being there, sure some people find it offensive... and okay I can see why but I don't see how that is relevant to put there without the part of the controversy, it becomes redundant to an extent.
I see that you are again blind and don't seem to read what I said before "I don't agree with the controversy Erica had on the trans represantation in Catherine but considering it had a good amount on controversy and notoriety I left that part be [in the trivia section]." I sooooo totally am forcing my beliefs... please... stop reading what you want to make an arguement and making accusations.
You yourself are saying the represantation is problematic and you are deciding to put it because it is problematic... which ultimately boils down to be controversial which I still haven't seen becoming a controversy yet (not big, mind you but notable enough in the community). I can also make an arguement of you forcing the idea that it's problematic due to what a few fans say because "it is fact" which makes it a double standard. Of course I am not accusing you of anything, you believe this issue at hand is a problem and you are deciding on putting it... okay, but I'm at the side that doesn't agree with it. Again... I'm not trying to force anything on anyone, I'm really trying to reach a reasonable conclusion to this stupidity so I would be glad for you to stop accusing me of this shit, I don't mind that piece of info being on the trivia section but at least tell me something else to agree and see the relevancy cuz I still can't see it.
I don't think you know what "redundant" means? It's not redundant at all. I don't know if English is your first language or not, but please don't use words if you don't fully grasp their meaning. Anyway, Persona 5 Trivia should include short and interesting points about the game that can't fit anywhere else. Because of this, noting how the game represents a group in Trivia in the game isn't "irrelevant". And that seems like your only main opposition to the Trivia now. Also, stop acting like I'm exaggerating how "problematic" it is. If the only gay characters in the game are portrayed as punchlines who want to molest minors, that IS problematic. If you don't see how that is problematic to some people, then you're part of the problem. That's why you should be generous and let it remain, pretty please. —AlexShepherd 22:15, May 4, 2017 (UTC)
Again it seems you didn't read that I DID see how it is problematic to some folks but I didn't fully agree with it yet, but hey thanks for saying I'm part of the problem when I'm not and I only wanted to reach a fucking reasonable conclusion without stupid fucking accusations but it seems you are unable to do so because when someone disagrees you need to be a jackass about it and make accusations, great arguemantation, dude, keep at it, insulting seems to be a good way of doing things for you. Good luck keeping that shit there. Crok425 (talk) 01:52, May 5, 2017 (UTC)
Yes, you ARE part of the problem, and yes, it boils down to "I don't agree with it so I want it off for everyone else" and you think your opinion is so important that you think you're allowed to remove this Trivia for everyone else. You're like someone who goes to a party and sees everyone eating chocolate cake and enjoying it, but since you don't like chocolate cake yourself, you take the cake and throw it in the trash, ruining everyone else's enjoyment.
Let me explain why you're part of the problem. For a long time, LGBT people have been murdered, tortured, hanged, discriminated, called horrible names, thrown off buildings, etc. We live in a Trump era, where the alt-right is increasing, and homophobia and LGBT discrimination and hate is becoming rampant. Also, not too long ago, people were taught that LGBT people and child molestors are the same.
The only gay people in this game are portrayed as punchlines who are "weird" and want to rape and sexually harass boys, only adding fire to this fuel. Lots of people are going to play the game and think poorly of LGBT people as a result. It's disgusting, horrible and juvenile humor, and deserves to be noted. This is the LAST type of representation LGBT people need.
If you actually cared about LGBT people, you would shrug and let it remain. By refusing to allow it to be noted, a teeny tiny little Trivia point that merely says this is how the only gay people in the game are portrayed and invites people to think about this issue, you are indeed part of the problem, and by trying to deny this, you're being bigoted and claiming "I'm accusing you of saying all these things that aren't true about yourself", when this is exactly what you're doing, and you're doing a poor job of trying to convince me otherwise. And you said "good luck keeping that shit there". You're basically admitting that caring about how LGBT people are portrayed is "shit". You're not helping when it comes to not looking like a bigot. —AlexShepherd 10:09, May 5, 2017 (UTC)
Look who's making a strawman now... great arguement, buddy, bro, dude, my hermano. You're pathetic. The only thing I wanted was a stupid reasonable conclusion, I do care about LGBT issues I just didn't AGREE with the problematic stuff in P5 because I didn't, at the time, saw how problematic it was... but yeah, I'm part of the problem by saying I don't agree with it... I do hope my gay friend doesn't call me a bigot now... but either way, I'm part of the problem now so I have to agree on what you say so I can stop being a bigot.
I'm amazed how pathetic you are, I'm bigoted now? I'm amazed... I am really. I'm saying that "good luck keeping that shit there"... but of course you take stuff too literally... don't americans use the word "shit" for all sorts of stuff? I wasn't trying to imply LGBT represantation was shit... for the love of jesus christ.
You do realize I said MULTIPLE TIMES that I don't mind that the trivia is there as long as you make a reasonable point as to why it should stay instead of saying "cuz LGBT people are offended and you are a bigot if you don't agree" which pissed me off... it's the same with Erica's trivia about her character being controversial, I don't agree with her being controvertial but after seeing many rational points I didn't mind that piece of trivia being there, I still didn't agree but I understood their point. Rational arguements aren't your thing, so I won't keep this shit up anymore since I'm tired on how simple minded you are. Crok425 (talk) 00:12, May 6, 2017 (UTC)

ReceptionEdit

If there was decision to not have a reception section, then there should be no content which quotes reception from publications either, not just merely avoiding the "reception" section title. Adding reception to trivia is just a poor way to circumvent that decision and make the trivia section needlessly redundant. -- Inpursuit (talk) 06:50, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

Maybe so, but I think we *should* have Reception sections on this wiki. I'm not sure why this wiki doesn't allow them, when other Wikias as well as Wikipedia have them. —AlexShepherd 06:55, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
Because the equivalent Wikipedia article already does a better job in organizing reception, repeating that thing on Wikia is redundant and asking personal biased opinions to be added because we do not have the same level of verification required on Wikipedia. -- Inpursuit (talk) 07:00, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
But going to a separate wiki for Reception is kinda annoying, and sometimes, we can go in-depth on some of the game's mechanics more which Wikipedia doesn't usually do. I don't think that Receptions become biased either, they usually do a good job of being neutral eventually. —AlexShepherd 07:05, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
If making criticisms based on purely political motives doesn't qualify as biased, what does? --69.138.27.21 07:09, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
Just because something is rooted in politics, it doesn't mean it's "biased" or "unimportant". —AlexShepherd 07:52, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
You were called out on it by more people than just me, I'm just the most vocal one. Doesn't that strike you as odd? They can't all be big bad homophobic boogeymen, so maybe you're the one who's in the wrong. --69.138.27.21 14:36, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
I wasn't "called out", a few people just disagreed. After I explained myself and my reasoning and reverted, those editors apparently didn't revert back which probably means they understood. You're the one who's taking it to this level. Also, I *never* claimed those editors were homophobic at all, so don't create a strawman and put words in my mouth. And just because someone is in the minority, it doesn't mean they're wrong. —AlexShepherd 14:55, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
It doesn't make them right either, it just makes them loud. There's a reason why the majority has no opinion: they're waiting for you to shut up on your own. --69.138.27.21 15:10, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
No one has said that, so speak for yourself. —AlexShepherd 15:23, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
I can't speak for everyone, but IP Address up there pretty much hit the nail on the head for me. Every debate with you over adding LGBT stuff to this wiki seems to end in you accusing your opponents of being "part of the problem" - see the topic above - which, let's be honest, is just a passive-aggressive way of calling someone homo/trans-phobic. The main reason I don't bother contesting these things is because I don't want to deal with dozens of back-and-forth posts that end in namecalling and no consensus. --DirtyBlue929 (talk) 07:41, May 5, 2017 (UTC)
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not accusing anyone of being homophobic/transphobic (except Great Mara before who refuses to use preferred gender pronouns and acts like LGBT people are mentally ill). But by denying this Trivia, you are indeed part of the problem. I explained why above. —AlexShepherd 10:16, May 5, 2017 (UTC)

Persona 2's yearEdit

Just to back up my claim here's a link with some images. [1] As you can see Innocent Sin does take place in August 1999 while Eternal Punishment takes place in February 2000.

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